OK, the forum is coming..

Andreas Kostyrka andreas at kostyrka.org
Tue Jul 24 20:42:14 CEST 2007

Hash: SHA1

Mark wrote:
> On 7/24/07, Daniel Robinson <dgrobinson at dgrobinson.com> wrote:
>> The fact that you are subscribed to 20 different mailing lists and you
>> would
>> find it difficult to read all of that information on 20 different
>> forum UIs
>> is your issue, and it is not the responsibility of this community to
>> address.
>> To state, axiomatically,  that mailing lists are more efficient is to
>> attempt proof by assertion.
> I think  you may fine that mailing lists are more efficient if you
> want to read all information that comes across the list.
> If however, you don't care about a significant portion of the posts
> (like I have stopped caring to see this one). A forum is more
> efficient cause you end up deleting it over and over again instead of
> just not clicking on that thread.

Not correct. My mail client sorts and deletes mailing posts for me :)

Actually, I use a model, where all mailing list posts arrive in the
INBOX, and get sorted away only my explicit command. And my mailing list
folders automatically delete everything that gets to old.

If I need to look up something old, I can always google through the
archives, or download the whole archive.

The point is, that ignoring post that don't interest me has costs
axiomatically near to 0, at least if you use a sensible client. The
point is that almost every mail client is better suited to communication
work than basically every forum that I do know. Worse, at least to my
personal selection of tools, it's more time consuming for me to join a
forum to reply to some posts that I've googled, than to resuscitate an
archived mailing list post that I've found, so that I can reply directly
to it.

The theoretical aspects are that Email is way more organized and
standardized than the average html page. And to make that observation
relevant, one needs to add the observation that the usage model of
emails is quite compatible for community communications.

While html over http, is in no way optimized for communications.

And to answer the "I don't want to show my email address" to the world.
Well. Hint: email address are a near-zero cost commodity. And I
personally find it usually useful that a prospective customer can be
handed my email address (and the short list of previous emails that I've
used in the last 14 or so years), and he can see all my participation by
simply googling. With forums, there is no way to know if MrX is me, or
some other different MrX. Now if I want to post something that I do not
associated with my professional identity, I just need to select the pull
 down menu in my mail client, to select another identity. Even funnier,
there are services that provide all kinds of disposable email addresses,
 what ever your particular need (some would say paranoia, but I say
need, as there are valid reasons for all kinds of shades of anonimity.
Btw, I can have reliable anonymity with email by using mixmaster. Way
more difficult with webforums.)


>> The goal is communication, not rightness.  How is communication best
>> served?
> Most people seem to specialize and therefore don't actually care about
> all posts, so I think a forum is marginally more suited especially
> when most of the traffic is dedicated to dumb arguments like this one
> (which I realize I have now participated in).
> So to increase communication I really think both solutions,
> synchronized is best.  But I really think it should wait for some
> official word if an official one is on its way (and delayed by more
> important things like shipping the phones).
> Mark
>> --Dan
>>  On 7/24/07, Andreas Kostyrka <andreas at kostyrka.org> wrote:
> No, it's just habits. And it's not about Engineers, it's about long
>>> time
> email users. (I mean the generation before the invention of the "http
> protocol". If one can consider HTTP 0.9 to be a protocol ;) )
> And yes, email is important to these old timers. Mailing lists are
>>> quite
> well standardized, there are less than half a dozen mailing list
> management packages that matter, and even these have mostly the same
> behaviour. I'm subscribed on more than 20 mailing lists (most of these
> in the Linux/Python/PostgreSQL realm), that I follow more or less
> depending upon work pressure. I can keep a tab on these mailing lists,
> because they use a standard interface.
> Navigating 20 different "forums", is not feasible:
> -) I need to actively pull information. That's time I could be
>>> already
> using to read messages.
> -) the UI of forums is really not uniform. I need to join, login
> (depending upon the forum and my browser setting each time, every 2
> weeks, never), manage to find if new messages that might interest
>>> me, ...
> -) the UI of mailing lists is my known standard mail client.
> You can see the difference, e.g. my wife participates in a forum based
> cooking community. Notice: "relative newcomer" (less than a decade
> Internet experience), 1 community (not dozens of mailing lists needed).
> Basically, mailing lists are more efficient. Not necessarily easy on
> newbies. (And yes, efficient does not mean easy. Efficient is measured
> in units like "transaction" per "time unit". And I can clearly
>>> "process"
> (or decide not to "process") more messages per hour in my mailer than
> with my browser)
> Andreas
> Daniel Robinson wrote:
>> What is it about engineers that they act like any idea other than
>>> theirs
>> is not worthy of consideration?
>> I don't know any of you, and I am only responding to this email
>>> because
>> it is typical of the kind of traffic that has been going back and
>>> forth
>> about this issue.
>> Don't build your house on ice?  This is typical of the dismissiveness
>> with which people have responded about this issue.  The straw man
>>> being
>> used here, that wanting one position or the other is as
>>> meritorious as
>> building one's house on ice, is not valid.  It smacks of
>>> sanctimony and
>> that should be avoided.
>> On 7/24/07, *Ted Lemon* <mellon at fugue.com <mailto:mellon at fugue.com>>
>>> wrote:
>>     > Quite frankly I am completely, totally,
>>     > overwhelmingly baffled at the resistance to the forums. 
>>> Quite a
>>> few
>>     > people have expressed their dislikes of mailing lists and
>>> how they
>>     were
>>     > *very* reluctant (like myself) to join.
>>     Worrying about your email address being exposed is pretty silly.
>>     That's like worrying that the ice on a pond will break when it
>>> melts
>>> in
>>     the spring and your house will fall in.   Don't build your
>>> house on
>>     ice.
>>     As for forums, they are very nice for casual use.   They are
>>> terrible
>>     for staying in touch, unless you visit them obsessively.   The
>>> nice
>>     thing about a mailing list is that the mail keeps arriving in
>>> your
>>     inbox, you see it go by, and you can pay attention or not as you
>>> choose.
>>     And if you miss something, it's easy to go back and find it.
>>     Forums aren't bad - they're just different.   I think it would be
>>> great
>>     if the casual traffic migrated to a forum.
>>     _______________________________________________
>>     OpenMoko community mailing list
>>     community at lists.openmoko.org
>>> <mailto:community at lists.openmoko.org>
>>> http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> _______________________________________________
>> OpenMoko community mailing list
>> community at lists.openmoko.org
>> http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
>> >
>> _______________________________________________
>> OpenMoko community mailing list
>> community at lists.openmoko.org
>> http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community

> _______________________________________________
> OpenMoko community mailing list
> community at lists.openmoko.org
> http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Version: GnuPG v1.4.2 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org


More information about the community mailing list