Calling interested Glamo OpenGL developers (was: The forbidden topic: Glamo OpenGL)

Wolfgang Spraul wolfgang at openmoko.com
Fri Nov 21 04:59:42 CET 2008


Lally,

> how long is OM going to be using the Glamo?
The glamo will be kept for the lifetime of gta02, i.e. every gta02  
will have the glamo chip.
For gta03, release date unknown, the decision is to not have a glamo,  
we use the acceleration of the SoC.

>  The GTA02's been on the brink of obsolescence since the day it was  
> introduced.
Don't agree with you. In the long run everything is obsolete.
GTA02 is a real pioneering device for Linux in mobile phones, and is  
still advancing the state of Free Software in mobile phones in many  
areas.
We owe the community better hardware, and have made decisions  
internally to only focus on hardware and lower-level software.
But that will not remove the pioneering status of GTA02, not even when  
GTA03 ships, again release date unknown at this point.

> It can't even take most modern (3G) SIMs.
Thanks to great work from Dieter, Joerg and Werner, this bug (trac  
#666) seems to be fixed now, GSM reflash utility and instructions are  
available, etc.
Next they target trac #1024 (network re-registration).

> If the Glamo (or something compatible) is going to be around for a  
> while, either in
> a long production life of the GTA02, or in newer phones,
Long production life of GTA02.

>  Hence, my earlier suggestion on just using the acceleration for some
> Gtk operations.  Small, effective changes.  Get that done to make the
> device feel responsive.  If someone wants to do the big OpenGL
> implementation later, fine, use this Gtk work as a sandbox for getting
> a feel for the device.
Very good idea. I always prefer breaking a large idea into smaller  
pieces.

>  $400 for a phone is a reasonable investment.  But months of work in
> one's spare time is much bigger.  Before anyone commits to a
> large-scale project, I think it's fair to ask OM what their plans are
> with this chip.
Absolutely. I have already answered many aspects in other mails, but  
let me summarize again:

1. We currently are disappointed about s-media. To be fair to them I  
do not want to quote from contracts we have with them, but let me tell  
you at the bottom line we feel there have been some broken promises  
with regards to opening documentation.
2. Because of this situation, we decided to not use s-media chips in  
future Openmoko products.
3. At the same time, we decided to not come out with GTA02 versions  
that had the glamo removed, because that would have been hard to do  
technically, and it would have created too much technical fragmentation.
4. Even with raster's bashing, the glamo chip is a really nice mobile  
graphics chip. I say this also considering when it was released.  
Openmoko's speed of progress still does not match industry speed.  
While the other (closed) chip vendors are already 2 generations ahead,  
we (Openmoko and the Free Software community) are still writing  
drivers for older chips. But we shouldn't let others distract us. Our  
software is 100% Free Software. We want to be able to install mainline  
kernel.org kernels one day. We want to be able to run many Linux  
distributions on the phone one day. We are coming from behind, but I'm  
sure with the help of the community we can even drag something like  
the glamo out into the open.
5. We will have the same problem with open 2D/3D acceleration again in  
the future, so breaking the glamo free could be considered a good  
'exercise'. No matter whether you look at future Samsung, TI, Marvell  
chips. The 3D acceleration part is always closed. In other words needs  
to be opened by us. We might as well start with the glamo now, better  
than waiting for the 'perfect moment' which will never come...

Best Regards,
Wolfgang

On Nov 17, 2008, at 3:40 PM, Lally Singh wrote:

> Well then,
>
>  Therein lies the question, how long is OM going to be using the
> Glamo?  There's apparently some real potential in the device, but
> that's really measured as much by the chip's relevance as its
> functionality.
>
>  The GTA02's been on the brink of obsolescence since the day it was
> introduced.  It can't even take most modern (3G) SIMs.  If the Glamo
> (or something compatible) is going to be around for a while, either in
> a long production life of the GTA02, or in newer phones, then all this
> makes sound engineering sense to work on.
>
>  Otherwise, I have real doubts about the longevity of a software
> project aggressive enough to attempt major work (e.g. accellerated
> OpenGL) on this chip.  Lots of open source projects start off with a
> bang of enthusiasm, and die with a whimper.  If the chip's gone in a
> few months, I don't think we'll see the project survive.
>
>  Hence, my earlier suggestion on just using the acceleration for some
> Gtk operations.  Small, effective changes.  Get that done to make the
> device feel responsive.  If someone wants to do the big OpenGL
> implementation later, fine, use this Gtk work as a sandbox for getting
> a feel for the device.
>
>  $400 for a phone is a reasonable investment.  But months of work in
> one's spare time is much bigger.  Before anyone commits to a
> large-scale project, I think it's fair to ask OM what their plans are
> with this chip.
>
> -ls
>
> On Sun, Nov 16, 2008 at 11:43 PM, Neng-Yu Tu (Tony Tu)
> <tony at openmoko.com> wrote:
>> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
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>>
>>> Those are some good questions.  From what I understand the Glamo is
>>> fixed-function and supports OpenGL ES 1.1.  As far as changing  
>>> Xglamo to
>>> be based on X over kdrive, I think to start, it would be best to  
>>> leave
>>> Xglamo the way it is and just add-in OpenGL ES support, but if there
>>> were people dedicated to getting X support I would vote for it.
>>>
>>
>> Glamo3363 support:
>>
>> * OpenGL ES 1.0
>> * OpenGL ES 1.1
>> * Mobile D3D
>>
>> 3D pipe line:
>>
>> * transform
>> * cull
>> * lighting
>> * clipping
>> * setup
>> * rasterizer
>>
>> The glamo datasheet is full of register settings, as wolfgang said,  
>> we
>> hope could resolve this NDA issue in someway that could help people
>> develop 3D development on FR.
>>
>> - --
>> Neng-Yu Tu (Tony Tu)
>> Openmoko, Inc.
>> Support.
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>> iEYEARECAAYFAkkg9oEACgkQmV6sZhhBn2+FKQCgq+A2HsKkNTlKHvZgi/zjlale
>> qXsAn2gi5L3cc0/SKjYF54ve6KtzIABW
>> =fJkN
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>
>
>
> -- 
> H. Lally Singh
> Ph.D. Candidate, Computer Science
> Virginia Tech
>
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