Ain't it funny..

Dale Maggee antisol at
Fri May 8 17:24:13 CEST 2009

Hash: SHA1

Hi Steve,

I appreciate your replying to this thread.

I would however point out that I believe that you should have already
been aware of this issue before I raised it in this public mailing list:
I sent three emails to Openmoko asking about getting a refund, and
received no reply to any of them. I've pasted these emails below, after
the "---BEGIN EMAIL THREAD---" Line. You were cc'd in two of these
emails (the ones saying "I've had no reply"). I eventually got a
response from Tony Tu on the trac ticket, at which point I stopped
sending emails to you.

As I've indicated, I've already gone through the process of requesting a
refund for the device, and this was declined. I think you should be able
to find all the info you need at

I think that if you want to discuss the refund issue with me, it may be
more appropriate to do so off-list, but I realise that I may have
created a public image issue for you here (given my usage of the words
"thieves" and "defrauded"), and that you may therefore want to keep this
public. If you're willing to work with me to resolve my grievances and
prove my assertions incorrect, then I'd be more than happy to come back
here and retract my previous statements once it's resolved :).  That
might be more appropriate, rather than flooding the mailing list with
what will effectively be back-and-forth personal conversations between
you and me. but if you want to discuss it in this public place I have no
problem with that either - up to you.

Since having my application for a refund declined, I had come to kind of
accept that I had "been screwed", and I have since bought another phone.
Since I did that, I've (in my less angry moments) come to see the FR as
a kind-of-cool little open-source device, as long as you don't want to
use it as a phone. I haven't really done anything much with it, because
so far I've been too angry to really even look at it, but I will admit
that it does have potential for something, even if it's not as a
reliable phone.

(That's my whole point, by the way: That it's not a usable phone, even
after a year of waiting, and I bought it because I wanted a working open
source phone, and I was told that the FR would meet that requirement).

I would therefore perhaps be open to accepting a partial refund and
keeping the device as a PDA-sized linux device (The AU Laws allow for
that), even if I never use it. But I think that if this were to happen I
 would maybe not feel cheated anymore and could possibly once again
enjoy participating constructively in the community.

I Look forward to hearing from you.

- -Dale


Subject: [Fwd: [Fwd: FreeRunner]]
Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2009 20:19:34 +1100
From: Dale Maggee <antisol at>
To: contact at,  sean at,  steve at

Having received absolutely no response whatsoever after more than a
week, even after opening a refund ticker in trac (#36), I resend my
email once again...

- -------- Original Message --------
Subject: [Fwd: FreeRunner]
Date: Fri, 13 Mar 2009 10:25:12 +1100
From: Dale Maggee <antisol at>
To: contact at
CC: sean at,  mickey at,  steve at

Having received no response whatsoever to my previous email, I'll send
it again, and add a few more addresses. Hopefully I'll get a reply this
time. Please see below.

- -Dale

- -------- Original Message --------
Subject: FreeRunner
Date: Mon, 09 Mar 2009 16:35:41 +1100
From: Dale Maggee <antisol at>
To: contact at


Please advise what is the process for getting my money back for my Neo

Before I purchased this device almost a year ago, I was told that it
could reliably make and recieve phone calls, as per Steve's email below.
This is not, nor has it ever been the case - The device has *never*
reliably made or recieved phone calls, it's overall stability is
completely sub-par, and the ASU software stack mentioned turned out to
be even less reliable and also slower than the original 2007.2 software

I have listened to Openmoko's promises regarding solving the issues, and
these promises have not been met, repeatedly. In addition to this, as
far as I can see, Openmoko's emphasis does not appear to be on stability
or being able to use the device reliably as a phone, you seem to be more
interested in building new frameworks from the ground up than actually
making the device do what I bought it to do. While I'll agree that FSO
may *one day* provide a usefull framework, it is presently far away from
this goal (*still* no PIM!).

In addition, "a working phone that could be used as an everyday phone"
has a suspend mode, will happily go for more than 4-6 hours without
being attached to a battery charger, and will actually wake up from
suspend mode when appropriate (i.e if somebody calls). Thus this device
does not do what you have told me it would do, even nine months on.
Don't bother trying to tell me that "the suspend problems are fixed in
the .28 kernel", because months after hearing these claims there are
*still* no distros available which use this kernel, making this point moot.

I apologise for the curt tone of this email, but I have become
increasingly frustrated and disconcerted with this device as time has
gone on, I've repeatedly resisted the urge to post much more
harshly-worded emails on the mailing lists, and I have now come to the
conclusion that I have no option other than to purchase a new phone
which will actually do what it's supposed to do. As such, I will have no
use for the Freerunner, and according to the Australian Fair Trading
laws, I am entitled to a refund under the Fair Trading Act 1999 if the
goods I bought have a fault I could not have known about when I bought
them, or do not do the job I was led to believe they would. The
Freerunner clearly and demonstrably fits both of these criteria.

As such, please advise how I should go about obtaining my refund.

- -Dale Maggee

On 29-Jun-2008, steve <steve at> wrote:
> The base software provided with the phone at launch will support
> everyday use.
> 1. dialer.
> 2. SMS.
> 3. Contacts.
> That was the fundamental goal. Provde a working phone that could be
> used as an everyday phone.
> In the background a whole new software suite is being created. ASU.
> So between launch ( right now) and sometime in August/september,
> will have a
> Phone that actually works like a phone. It's functionality will be basic.
> Come this fall
> The whole look and Feel will change.
> Steve


Steve Mosher wrote:
>  Hi Dale.
>     I got a note from the people who handle these issues. In looking 
> through our store records
>     we were unable to find any order from you at That 
> doesn't mean
>     you haven't purchased a phone. If you could, provide me with the 
> details of your
>     purchase. Who you bought it from and when. Also, if you take the 
> battery out
>     you'll see a IMEI number and a serial number. That will help with 
> tracking as
>     well. So send those along as well.
>  Best Regards
> Steve
> steve at
> Dale Maggee wrote:
> Guten Tag, Sieg Heil.
> Seriously... You may not have heard of it, but There's a concept that's
> been around for a while called "Free speech"... you know, as opposed to
> "free beer".
> "Goebbels was in favour of free speech for views he liked. So was
> Stalin. If you're really in favour of free speech, then you're in favour
> of freedom of speech for precisely for views you despise. Otherwise,
> you're not in favour of free speech." - Noam Chomsky
> I am contributing - contributing to Free Speech, and I'm doing my part
> to warn prospective customers against giving their money to thieves.
> If you're not in favour of free speech then I have two words for you:
> "Email filter". But I'm not going anywhere.
> (Note: I know there are quite a few deutschlanders on this list, and my
> use of your language is not intended in any way as a slight against your
> people or country. On the contrary, I think that you're among the most
> beautiful and intelligent people in the world, and your country reflects
> that... :) )
> jeremy jozwik wrote:
>>>> seriously... go write the prime minister or something. if your not
>>>> going to contribute your just wasting everyone else's time
>>>> On Thu, May 7, 2009 at 5:04 PM, Dale Maggee <antisol at> wrote:
>>>> arne anka wrote:
>>>>>>>> Bitter much? : )
>>>>>>> nope. he's just a troll.
>>>> Before I bought My Neo, I was told by OM that it would work as a phone.
>>>> Once I got it and said "WTF This doesn't work as a phone!" I was told by
>>>> OM that 2008.8 would. So I waited.
>>>> It was worse than 2007.2. I was told  that 2008.12 would be much better.
>>>> So I waited.
>>>> Was there even any difference? Sure, the animations might have been a
>>>> bit smoother, or something, but it still didn't work as a phone.
>>>> When I asked for my money back I was told that it had been too long
>>>> since I placed my order... despite the fact that the only reason I
>>>> waited so long was that I trusted OM when they said that I would
>>>> eventually get a working phone.
>>>> I contacted Consumer Affairs here in AU. They told me that OM were
>>>> legally bound by our laws (which include a clause giving me the right to
>>>> demand a refund if the item doesn't do what I was led to believe it
>>>> would do). They told me that according to the letter of the law, OM were
>>>> required to give me a refund. They also told me that since they're based
>>>> overseas, there's basically no way to enforce it.
>>>> In short: OM Have Lied to me, then violated the consumer protection laws
>>>> they're bound to by selling a Neo to an Australian Citizen by refusing
>>>> to refund my money. That means that *OpenMoko Are THIEVES*.
>>>> Anything I say about them is justified. IMO you can't be a troll if
>>>> you're in the right. And I am. I have been defrauded of $400. And so
>>>> have you. The only difference is that I'm not willing to sit around
>>>> pretending that being raped is all fun and games.
> _______________________________________________
> Openmoko community mailing list
> community at
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Openmoko community mailing list
>>>> community at
Openmoko community mailing list
community at

> _______________________________________________
> Openmoko community mailing list
> community at

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