Ain't it funny..

Dale Maggee antisol at
Sat May 9 08:47:01 CEST 2009

Hash: SHA1

For the Conspiracy Theorists out there: Steve and I are discussing this

For everybody else: This list will now be free of my vitriol while Steve
and I talk. Enjoy.

Steve Mosher wrote:
> Dale Maggee wrote:
> Hi Steve,
> I appreciate your replying to this thread.
> I would however point out that I believe that you should have already
> been aware of this issue before I raised it in this public mailing list:
> I sent three emails to Openmoko asking about getting a refund, and
> received no reply to any of them. I've pasted these emails below, after
> the "---BEGIN EMAIL THREAD---" Line. You were cc'd in two of these
> emails (the ones saying "I've had no reply"). I eventually got a
> response from Tony Tu on the trac ticket, at which point I stopped
> sending emails to you.
>>   Dale, as you can well imagine since I receive mail every single time a
>> FR is ordered,
>>   since I receive mail every time we get a request for a return, since I
>> receive mail from
>>   the community list and the developer list and since I received mail
>> from  contact at openmoko
>>   university at openmoko.. oh heck every public mail we have plus I have my
>> email on every
>>   press release, you can well imagine that I might have forgotten your
>> name. But I didn't.
>>   Two people handled the RMAs on product purchased from OM store. And
>> with Tony on the
>>   job I just assumed it would handled. I've been informed that we dont
>> have a record a record
>>   of you purchasing the phone from us. That probably explains why Tony
>> could not process
>>   the return.
> As I've indicated, I've already gone through the process of requesting a
> refund for the device, and this was declined. I think you should be able
> to find all the info you need at
>>  Yes. As I stated above we have no record of you purchaing the phone at
>> our store:
>>  If you purchased it elsewhere please let me know. All of the guys here
>> who have dealt with me will
>>  tell you that I'm a fair and reasonable person.
> I think that if you want to discuss the refund issue with me, it may be
> more appropriate to do so off-list, but I realise that I may have
> created a public image issue for you here (given my usage of the words
> "thieves" and "defrauded"), and that you may therefore want to keep this
> public. If you're willing to work with me to resolve my grievances and
> prove my assertions incorrect, then I'd be more than happy to come back
> here and retract my previous statements once it's resolved :).  That
> might be more appropriate, rather than flooding the mailing list with
> what will effectively be back-and-forth personal conversations between
> you and me. but if you want to discuss it in this public place I have no
> problem with that either - up to you.
>> Makes no difference to me. If I handled this privately I'm sure some
>> lunatic down the road
>> who slam me for taking it private and launch into yact, yet another
>> conspiracy theory.
>> You put your return request into the RMA process for the Openmoko
>> store.  For
>> that process to work  we have to be able to find you in the database.
>> So, if you could
>> verify that you did in fact purchase the phone from that store ( the sn
>> and imei would
>> help) Then I can do two things:
>>   1. Figure out how the heck the system didnt capture your information
>>   2. Process your return.
>> WRT your language. If I took offense, then I'd be a thief. ( that's a
>> joke.. took a fence)
>> Seriously, I'm no person to lecture people about having a colorful way
>> of expressing
>> anger. I'll just say that some weapons have more collateral damage then
>> others.  And
>> sometimes you can frag yourself, intentionally or otherwise, if you
>> don't get clear of the blast zone.
> Since having my application for a refund declined, I had come to kind of
> accept that I had "been screwed", and I have since bought another phone.
> Since I did that, I've (in my less angry moments) come to see the FR as
> a kind-of-cool little open-source device, as long as you don't want to
> use it as a phone. I haven't really done anything much with it, because
> so far I've been too angry to really even look at it, but I will admit
> that it does have potential for something, even if it's not as a
> reliable phone.
>>  I'll check from my side but did they give you a reason for being declined.
> (That's my whole point, by the way: That it's not a usable phone, even
> after a year of waiting, and I bought it because I wanted a working open
> source phone, and I was told that the FR would meet that requirement).
> I would therefore perhaps be open to accepting a partial refund and
> keeping the device as a PDA-sized linux device (The AU Laws allow for
> that), even if I never use it. But I think that if this were to happen I
>  would maybe not feel cheated anymore and could possibly once again
> enjoy participating constructively in the community.
>> Let's see what turns up  when I get the ID numbers I requested. If you
>> bought it from somebody
>> else, then there might be a variety of remedies. But here in the states
>> to process a return
>> proof of purchase is required. Again, I'm not insinuating that you didnt
>> buy the phone. I'm
>> just trying to nail down the details required to solve the situation for
>> you. And I do appreciate your patience
>> and your willingness to see some good in the device
> I Look forward to hearing from you.
> Regards,
> -Dale
> Subject: [Fwd: [Fwd: FreeRunner]]
> Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2009 20:19:34 +1100
> From: Dale Maggee <antisol at>
> To: contact at,  sean at,  steve at
> Having received absolutely no response whatsoever after more than a
> week, even after opening a refund ticker in trac (#36), I resend my
> email once again...
> -------- Original Message --------
> Subject: [Fwd: FreeRunner]
> Date: Fri, 13 Mar 2009 10:25:12 +1100
> From: Dale Maggee <antisol at>
> To: contact at
> CC: sean at,  mickey at,  steve at
> Having received no response whatsoever to my previous email, I'll send
> it again, and add a few more addresses. Hopefully I'll get a reply this
> time. Please see below.
> Regards,
> -Dale
> -------- Original Message --------
> Subject: FreeRunner
> Date: Mon, 09 Mar 2009 16:35:41 +1100
> From: Dale Maggee <antisol at>
> To: contact at
> Hi,
> Please advise what is the process for getting my money back for my Neo
> Freerunner.
> Before I purchased this device almost a year ago, I was told that it
> could reliably make and recieve phone calls, as per Steve's email below.
> This is not, nor has it ever been the case - The device has *never*
> reliably made or recieved phone calls, it's overall stability is
> completely sub-par, and the ASU software stack mentioned turned out to
> be even less reliable and also slower than the original 2007.2 software
> stack.
> I have listened to Openmoko's promises regarding solving the issues, and
> these promises have not been met, repeatedly. In addition to this, as
> far as I can see, Openmoko's emphasis does not appear to be on stability
> or being able to use the device reliably as a phone, you seem to be more
> interested in building new frameworks from the ground up than actually
> making the device do what I bought it to do. While I'll agree that FSO
> may *one day* provide a usefull framework, it is presently far away from
> this goal (*still* no PIM!).
> In addition, "a working phone that could be used as an everyday phone"
> has a suspend mode, will happily go for more than 4-6 hours without
> being attached to a battery charger, and will actually wake up from
> suspend mode when appropriate (i.e if somebody calls). Thus this device
> does not do what you have told me it would do, even nine months on.
> Don't bother trying to tell me that "the suspend problems are fixed in
> the .28 kernel", because months after hearing these claims there are
> *still* no distros available which use this kernel, making this point
> moot.
> I apologise for the curt tone of this email, but I have become
> increasingly frustrated and disconcerted with this device as time has
> gone on, I've repeatedly resisted the urge to post much more
> harshly-worded emails on the mailing lists, and I have now come to the
> conclusion that I have no option other than to purchase a new phone
> which will actually do what it's supposed to do. As such, I will have no
> use for the Freerunner, and according to the Australian Fair Trading
> laws, I am entitled to a refund under the Fair Trading Act 1999 if the
> goods I bought have a fault I could not have known about when I bought
> them, or do not do the job I was led to believe they would. The
> Freerunner clearly and demonstrably fits both of these criteria.
> As such, please advise how I should go about obtaining my refund.
> Regards,
> -Dale Maggee
> On 29-Jun-2008, steve <steve at> wrote:
>>>> The base software provided with the phone at launch will support
>>>> everyday use.
>>>> 1. dialer.
>>>> 2. SMS.
>>>> 3. Contacts.
>>>> That was the fundamental goal. Provde a working phone that could be
>>>> used as an everyday phone.
>>>> In the background a whole new software suite is being created. ASU.
>>>> So between launch ( right now) and sometime in August/september,
> developers
>>>> will have a
>>>> Phone that actually works like a phone. It's functionality will be
>>>> basic.
>>>> Come this fall
>>>> The whole look and Feel will change.
>>>> Steve
> Steve Mosher wrote:
>>>>  Hi Dale.
>>>>     I got a note from the people who handle these issues. In looking
>>>> through our store records
>>>>     we were unable to find any order from you at That
>>>> doesn't mean
>>>>     you haven't purchased a phone. If you could, provide me with the
>>>> details of your
>>>>     purchase. Who you bought it from and when. Also, if you take the
>>>> battery out
>>>>     you'll see a IMEI number and a serial number. That will help with
>>>> tracking as
>>>>     well. So send those along as well.
>>>>  Best Regards
>>>> Steve
>>>> steve at
>>>> Dale Maggee wrote:
>>>> Guten Tag, Sieg Heil.
>>>> Seriously... You may not have heard of it, but There's a concept that's
>>>> been around for a while called "Free speech"... you know, as opposed to
>>>> "free beer".
>>>> "Goebbels was in favour of free speech for views he liked. So was
>>>> Stalin. If you're really in favour of free speech, then you're in favour
>>>> of freedom of speech for precisely for views you despise. Otherwise,
>>>> you're not in favour of free speech." - Noam Chomsky
>>>> I am contributing - contributing to Free Speech, and I'm doing my part
>>>> to warn prospective customers against giving their money to thieves.
>>>> If you're not in favour of free speech then I have two words for you:
>>>> "Email filter". But I'm not going anywhere.
>>>> (Note: I know there are quite a few deutschlanders on this list, and my
>>>> use of your language is not intended in any way as a slight against your
>>>> people or country. On the contrary, I think that you're among the most
>>>> beautiful and intelligent people in the world, and your country reflects
>>>> that... :) )
>>>> jeremy jozwik wrote:
>>>>>>> seriously... go write the prime minister or something. if your not
>>>>>>> going to contribute your just wasting everyone else's time
>>>>>>> On Thu, May 7, 2009 at 5:04 PM, Dale Maggee
>>>>>>> <antisol at> wrote:
>>>>>>> arne anka wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> Bitter much? : )
>>>>>>>>>> nope. he's just a troll.
>>>>>>> Before I bought My Neo, I was told by OM that it would work as a
>>>>>>> phone.
>>>>>>> Once I got it and said "WTF This doesn't work as a phone!" I was
>>>>>>> told by
>>>>>>> OM that 2008.8 would. So I waited.
>>>>>>> It was worse than 2007.2. I was told  that 2008.12 would be much
>>>>>>> better.
>>>>>>> So I waited.
>>>>>>> Was there even any difference? Sure, the animations might have been a
>>>>>>> bit smoother, or something, but it still didn't work as a phone.
>>>>>>> When I asked for my money back I was told that it had been too long
>>>>>>> since I placed my order... despite the fact that the only reason I
>>>>>>> waited so long was that I trusted OM when they said that I would
>>>>>>> eventually get a working phone.
>>>>>>> I contacted Consumer Affairs here in AU. They told me that OM were
>>>>>>> legally bound by our laws (which include a clause giving me the
>>>>>>> right to
>>>>>>> demand a refund if the item doesn't do what I was led to believe it
>>>>>>> would do). They told me that according to the letter of the law,
>>>>>>> OM were
>>>>>>> required to give me a refund. They also told me that since they're
>>>>>>> based
>>>>>>> overseas, there's basically no way to enforce it.
>>>>>>> In short: OM Have Lied to me, then violated the consumer
>>>>>>> protection laws
>>>>>>> they're bound to by selling a Neo to an Australian Citizen by
>>>>>>> refusing
>>>>>>> to refund my money. That means that *OpenMoko Are THIEVES*.
>>>>>>> Anything I say about them is justified. IMO you can't be a troll if
>>>>>>> you're in the right. And I am. I have been defrauded of $400. And so
>>>>>>> have you. The only difference is that I'm not willing to sit around
>>>>>>> pretending that being raped is all fun and games.
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Openmoko community mailing list
>>>> community at
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> Openmoko community mailing list
>>>>>>> community at
> _______________________________________________
> Openmoko community mailing list
> community at
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Openmoko community mailing list
>>>> community at
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