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<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=390185220-28042008><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2>It would detract from the argument to not speak to the
points, so I will not argue about experience. You look only for a way to
minimize my argument. </FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=390185220-28042008><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN><SPAN class=390185220-28042008><FONT
face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader lang=en-us dir=ltr align=left><SPAN
class=390185220-28042008><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN
class=390185220-28042008><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>Your argument is
similar to suggesting Nike has superior engineering because they have the
coolest shoes. No doubt there is some engineering at Nike wrt shoes but it
aint that special in the grand scheme of things. It's about selling a
minimal product with high margins, like Apple.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader lang=en-us dir=ltr align=left><SPAN
class=390185220-28042008><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV></FONT></SPAN>
<DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader lang=en-us dir=ltr align=left><SPAN
class=390185220-28042008></SPAN><SPAN class=390185220-28042008><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2>If we take as a simplistic metric the number of inferences
and resulting complexity produced from work at the company required to go
from the drawing board to the product release, then the engineering that
goes into an iPhone is not really any more then most of the McWindows
phones out there. A lot of design and art and marketing considerations
mostly, but that is not really engineering, and what's left is for the most part
just a cheap computer with off the shelf parts. Parts that minimally met
the quality requirments, no doubt.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader lang=en-us dir=ltr align=left><SPAN
class=390185220-28042008><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader lang=en-us dir=ltr align=left><SPAN
class=390185220-28042008><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2>Matt</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader lang=en-us dir=ltr align=left><SPAN
class=390185220-28042008><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
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<DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader lang=en-us dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Tahoma
size=2><B>From:</B> community-bounces@lists.openmoko.org
[mailto:community-bounces@lists.openmoko.org] <B>On Behalf Of </B>hank
williams<BR><B>Sent:</B> Monday, April 28, 2008 4:47 PM<BR><B>To:</B> List for
Openmoko community discussion<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: Engineering Driven vs.
Community Driven (was Re: Ugliness)<BR></FONT><BR></DIV>
<DIV></DIV><BR><BR>
<DIV class=gmail_quote>On Mon, Apr 28, 2008 at 4:40 PM, Crane, Matthew <<A
href="mailto:mcrane03@harris.com">mcrane03@harris.com</A>> wrote:<BR>
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<DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>Clever
design != feat of engineering. </FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2>Matt</FONT></SPAN></DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV><BR>again, unless you have "engineered" a "clever design" I don't think you
have much credibility on this. Executing appealing products from an engineering
perspective is incredibly hard. What experiences do you have on this front which
would suggest otherwise.<BR> </DIV>
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<DIV class=Ih2E3d><B>From:</B> <A
href="mailto:community-bounces@lists.openmoko.org"
target=_blank>community-bounces@lists.openmoko.org</A> [mailto:<A
href="mailto:community-bounces@lists.openmoko.org"
target=_blank>community-bounces@lists.openmoko.org</A>] <B>On Behalf Of
</B>hank williams<BR></DIV><B>Sent:</B> Monday, April 28, 2008 4:26 PM
<DIV class=Ih2E3d><BR><B>To:</B> List for Openmoko community
discussion<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: Engineering Driven vs. Community Driven (was
Re: Ugliness)<BR></DIV></FONT><BR></DIV>
<DIV class=Ih2E3d>
<DIV></DIV><BR><BR>
<DIV class=gmail_quote>On Mon, Apr 28, 2008 at 3:57 PM, Crane, Matthew <<A
href="mailto:mcrane03@harris.com" target=_blank>mcrane03@harris.com</A>>
wrote:<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE class=gmail_quote
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<DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN>There is
nothing incredible about apple's electrical, software, or mechanical
engineering. IMHO.. </SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2><SPAN></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN>The
marketing/buzz machine is incredible though.
</SPAN></FONT></DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV><BR>I presume that you have never worked on a team that has built a
successful mainstream consumer product, because if you did, you certainly
would not be able to dismiss their success in this manner. Making things that
sell has very little to do with advertising. "hype" does not just come from
nowhere, as if from the heavens. If crappy products could win based on good
advertising, all that would be required was money and clearly that is not
nearly enough (see Microsoft Vista).<BR><BR>The bottom line is that best
selling tech gadgets, software, and computers sell to primarily tech savvy
people because they like them. They like them, because the designers and
developers have figured out how to make broadly appealing products. That is
hard. If you are suggesting otherwise without actually having a resume that
suggests you have done so yourself, you really don't have much of an
argument.<BR><BR>Hank<BR> </DIV>
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<DIV><B>From:</B> <A href="mailto:community-bounces@lists.openmoko.org"
target=_blank>community-bounces@lists.openmoko.org</A> [mailto:<A
href="mailto:community-bounces@lists.openmoko.org"
target=_blank>community-bounces@lists.openmoko.org</A>] <B>On Behalf Of
</B>hank williams<BR></DIV><B>Sent:</B> Monday, April 28, 2008 1:52 PM
<DIV><BR><B>To:</B> List for Openmoko community
discussion<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: Engineering Driven vs. Community Driven
(was Re: Ugliness)<BR></DIV></FONT><BR></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV></DIV><BR>
<DIV class=gmail_quote>
<BLOCKQUOTE class=gmail_quote
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<DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>If
this is primarily a developer platform, why are there so many intense
opinions about such superficial things as color and marketing
anyways?<BR></FONT></SPAN></DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV><BR>In today's world, there is *very* little daylight between marketing
and engineering. They are of a piece. The product design, the feature set,
and yes even the physical form factor are all both engineering issues as
well as marketing issues. Apple is a prime example of this. The beauty of
the design of their products is all about marketing, but could not be
achieved without incredible engineering on the electrical, software, and
mechanical engineering fronts. So I don't think, particularly for a phone,
you can separate these issues.<BR><BR>Hank <BR></DIV></DIV><BR>-- <BR>blog:
<A href="http://whydoeseverythingsuck.com"
target=_blank>whydoeseverythingsuck.com</A>
</DIV></DIV></DIV><BR>_______________________________________________<BR>Openmoko
community mailing list<BR><A href="mailto:community@lists.openmoko.org"
target=_blank>community@lists.openmoko.org</A><BR><A
href="http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community"
target=_blank>http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community</A><BR><BR></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><BR><BR
clear=all><BR>-- <BR>blog: <A href="http://whydoeseverythingsuck.com"
target=_blank>whydoeseverythingsuck.com</A>
</DIV></DIV><BR>_______________________________________________<BR>Openmoko
community mailing list<BR><A
href="mailto:community@lists.openmoko.org">community@lists.openmoko.org</A><BR><A
href="http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community"
target=_blank>http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community</A><BR><BR></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><BR><BR
clear=all><BR>-- <BR>blog: <A
href="http://whydoeseverythingsuck.com">whydoeseverythingsuck.com</A>
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