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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Its funny <st1:City w:st="on"><st1:place
w:st="on">Lowell</st1:place></st1:City>, I wanted to ask you this in private,
but what the hack. While I am working on getting this current product out the
door if you<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>could organize the community effort that
would be a great help to me, that way I don’t get distracted from the
grunt work of pushing boxes<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>out the door.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Personally, I’ve worked in marketing
driven companies and engineering driven companies. There are strengths and
weakness in both. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>If the marketing side has no idea about
forthcoming technology, if they just reflect the customer to engineering, then
you will<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>be a follower, not a leader. If you
ask customers what they want, more often then not they tell you what they have.
They don’t know what they are missing.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>On the other hand if the engineering side
has no idea of the customer, then you can get ( I’ve got the scars to
prove it) a product that has<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>great technology that nobody cares
about, or products ahead of their time. So it takes a balance. Typically
what I would do is<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>TWO lists. A technology PUSH list, created
by engineering and then a marketing PULL list created by marketing. That way
marketing<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>gets exposed to technologies they may not
know about and engineering gets exposed to customer needs they may have
overlooked.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Then the negotiation starts. This is a
discussion about schedule cost and ROI. So out of your list of Push and pull
you might conceptualize<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>a pure pull product, and you might conceptualize
a pure push product, do schedule costs and ROI. Then look at more balanced
concepts<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>in between. The way we do it at
Openmoko is that Wolfgang represents the engineering voice, I am the marketing
voice. Sean listens to<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>our inputs and decides. I don’t
think we have had a disagreement between the three of us that lasted more than
1 email exchange. So If you want to represent<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>the community voice to me, then I bring
that voice forward into the board room. Is that workable?<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font size=2
face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>
community-bounces@lists.openmoko.org
[mailto:community-bounces@lists.openmoko.org] <b><span style='font-weight:bold'>On
Behalf Of </span></b>Lowell Higley<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Tuesday, April 29, 2008 1:12
PM<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> List for Openmoko community
discussion<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: Engineering Driven
vs. Community Driven (was Re: Ugliness)</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font size=3
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>Hi Matt..<br>
<br>
I think I get a sense of where you are coming from. As an engineer, one
thinks "oh no, here comes these marketing people with their unrealistic
requirements again." Been there. Even been on the giving end.
:( On the flip side, as a marketer one sometimes thinks, "Man, will
these guys ever get a clue, no one wants that feature set." In a
*perfect* world, engineers and marketers would be equal partners.. I don't
think I've actually seen this work perfectly yet but I know the relationship I
built with the engineering at Unisys was hard earned and it was built on trust
(both ways.) It was a pretty good relationship and took me a few years to
build. You have to treat the other side as part of the team, not the enemy as
we have instincts to do. I've done it, I know.<br>
<br>
Here's how I see the roles working in an open environment...<br>
<br>
The marketing team creates a list of features that the product needs to
have. There is a lot that goes into this I want to keep it simple for
now. They sit down with the engineering team and create a list of agreed
upon features (even suggested features engineering brings to the table) that go
into the next product, prioritized of course. That list of features is
created based on priority and feasibility of hitting the target completion date
(agreed upon by everyone.. sort of.) Engineering then makes the magic
happen... when a feature or requirement turns out it can't be met (through bug
or other technical issue) both teams work out either a revised feature list or
target date. Depends on how important that feature is. I've been in
situations where I was told 5 days before the target date "oh by the way,
we dumped that must have feature x."<br>
<br>
While the engineering team is building the marketing team is working out the
future of the next product and creating the collateral and campaign for the
product in development. All publicly of course, with the aid of anyone
(including the techie folks) that wants to help. I have a lot of
ideas. I was thinking the bug database would be a good place to keep
feature suggestions/submissions... but I couldn't find a bug database in the
wiki. I must be blind. From that point, it's a big cycle.
Once you get it going... it's easy to keep on it. The hard part is
building the collaborative tools/process to do all this in.<br>
<br>
I think as an after thought, maybe we don't want to split into teams, just
create a logical process... Not sure how that would work, though.
People have definite skills in one are or the other. Anyways, that's my
hair brained idea... I guess I should talk this out with Steve before I go too
much further down this road. Thanks for the feedback. I think I
understand your perspective now.<br>
<br>
<st1:City w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Lowell</st1:place></st1:City><br>
<br>
PS - regarding Open Marketing, I'm a fan. I've been attempting to load
the framework on my Motorola E680i but not had too much success. Damn
QVGA. The people in my LUG know I am very interested in this project so I
get questions once a week via IRC on Openmoko. Far from an expert but
they seem to like my answer. I know if I had one to show off at a
meeting, it would be a hit.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>On Tue, Apr 29, 2008 at 10:22 AM, Crane, Matthew <<a
href="mailto:mcrane03@harris.com">mcrane03@harris.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=blue face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'>I understand what you're saying about
engineers tossing a product over the wall being a throw back. *Of course*
there's back and forth and both marketing and rnd contributing to each
other.. </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=blue face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'>But I think it is typical for engineers to
yearn for a larger role in marketing decisions and, less so, marketing to
overstate their role in product engineering. Both groups have
strong investments in the product dev process in different ways. I
think engineering tends to be more of a group development effort, where marketing
relies more on the strength of individuals, all with very good reasons. </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=blue face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=blue face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'>If the concerns are too overlapped, or if
there is no seperation and specialization, I don't think that works well
generally. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=blue face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'>I think there's very high value wrt role
seperation and specialization. I don't think it was suggested that
there was some kind of wall in the middle, that's ridiculous. But the
best products come from a respect for the others roles and intense focus on
what people are good at.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=blue face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'>Matt</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><font size=3
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>
<hr size=2 width="100%" align=center>
</span></font></div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font size=2
face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'> <a
href="mailto:community-bounces@lists.openmoko.org" target="_blank">community-bounces@lists.openmoko.org</a>
[mailto:<a href="mailto:community-bounces@lists.openmoko.org" target="_blank">community-bounces@lists.openmoko.org</a>]
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>Lowell Higley<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Tuesday, April 29, 2008
12:11 PM<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma'><br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> List for Openmoko community
discussion<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: Engineering Driven
vs. Community Driven (was Re: Ugliness)<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font size=3
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>Ok.. I'm severely jet
lagged but I will try to throw some closure on this and hope it is
coherent. Steve has been very cordial and enlightening in his mails
to me. The last I have yet to digest and respond to but overall it is
good, constructive stuff. After reading the diaglogue that has ensued, I
totally understand why he wanted to take the conversation private. We'll
has some things and go from there. Sorry for starting a firestorm.<br>
<br>
I want to let everyone know I don't intend to be negative and that was why I
sent that last message. If I see problems, I want to offer
solutions. I also want to thank Stroller for his phenomenal job for
capturing (and translating) what I was trying to say.<br>
<br>
There was one statement made that I want to comment on...<br>
<br>
></span></font><font size=2 color=blue face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'>I mean marketing is really just "how
to sell"....<SNIP></span></font><br>
<br>
That statement could not be farther from the truth, IMHO. I think any
Tech CEO worth his salt would tell you the same. That very statement and
belief is why so many startups in <st1:place w:st="on">Silicon Valley</st1:place>
(and probably worldwide) with very amazing products have gone bankrupt. I have
friends that lived through that nightmare. That mindset is the very
essence of the problem my original e-mail was trying to address. I
couldn't have summed it better myself. It makes it sound like engineering
comes up with a product all on it's own, throws it over a wall and to Marketing
and says "here, sell it". Kind of like a hot potato. That was the
case once... in the 60's, I believe. <br>
<br>
Today, any company that had that mindset would not last long unless they had
very deep pockets. Yes, I have a specific company in mind. My thought is
let's roll that marketing effort over to this project from a community
perspective. A lot of Open Source projects already do it.. Open Office is
the first one that comes to mind. One of the thing I want to do with
Steve is draw some boundaries... What is in Openmoko's court, and what is in
the community's court regarding marketing... etc.<br>
<br>
In the meantime, let's roll out the FreeRunner and once it's out, well attack
the next project publicly. Ok.. I'm going to sleep now. :) Cheers!<br>
<br>
<st1:City w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Lowell</st1:place></st1:City><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>On Mon, Apr 28, 2008 at 6:58 PM, steve <<a
href="mailto:steve@openmoko.com" target="_blank">steve@openmoko.com</a>>
wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'> thanks for explaining that to folks<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><br>
<br>
-----Original Message-----<br>
From: <a href="mailto:community-bounces@lists.openmoko.org" target="_blank">community-bounces@lists.openmoko.org</a><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font size=3
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>[mailto:<a
href="mailto:community-bounces@lists.openmoko.org" target="_blank">community-bounces@lists.openmoko.org</a>]
On Behalf Of Stroller<br>
Sent: Monday, April 28, 2008 2:01 PM<br>
To: List for Openmoko community discussion<br>
Subject: Re: Engineering Driven vs. Community Driven (was Re: Ugliness)<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>On 28 Apr 2008, at 17:54, hank williams wrote:<br>
<br>
> I have to say my unvoiced thoughts were the same as Ryan's. I was<br>
> not at all clear why a call for the community to help figure<br>
> marketing stuff out would be met by a request to take the<br>
> discussion off list as though it was somehow inappropriate for<br>
> public discussion. It seemed like a very strange response. Now<br>
> reading the responses to Ryan's comments seem even more strange. I<br>
> feel like I am missing something because the responses to Ryan's<br>
> comments seem on the surface, inappropriate as well.<br>
<br>
<br>
If you read further back in this thread you'll see that the subject<br>
changed in reply to my message, "Re: Ugliness" (26 April 2008<br>
13:58:04 BST).<br>
<br>
If you read back you'll see that before that someone was complaining<br>
"the Freerunner will never sell in the mass-market because me & my<br>
friends think it's ugly", and my counterpoint was, "heck, I'm sure<br>
FIC have done some market research (focus groups &c)".<br>
<br>
Lowell Higley obviously knows his stuff regarding selling tech<br>
products, and he raises some interesting points. I immediately wanted<br>
to reply to them, but I could have spent hours doing so. Not to argue<br>
with him, just to purse interesting avenues of discussion.<br>
<br>
But <st1:City w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Lowell</st1:place></st1:City>'s
insights are far more in depth than your average Xbox vs<br>
Playstation, who's-winning-the-format-war, fanbois' forum thread. As<br>
<st1:City w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Lowell</st1:place></st1:City> says:<br>
<br>
Marketing is much more than holding focus groups and creating sales<br>
copy. There is competitive analysis, business cases, marketing<br>
requirements, "negotiating" with engineering over the final
product,<br>
schedule.. and the list goes on. My point is, as I look at things<br>
and put the picture together, I see no strong marketing presence<br>
in the FreeRunner. Where's the MRD? Where's the focus group?<br>
Where's the business case?<br>
<br>
In case you don't speak the business jargon, "competitive analysis"<br>
means "how much does the competition sell for, how much will it cost<br>
us to make a similar product and how much profit can we make?".<br>
<br>
"Business cases" and the results of focus groups, say FIC stating<br>
that "you & your friends may think it's ugly, but we reckon we can<br>
sell XX thousand units and make $yyyyyyy profit" aren't really any of<br>
our business.<br>
<br>
In his second message (27 April 2008 18:16:11 BST) <st1:City w:st="on"><st1:place
w:st="on">Lowell</st1:place></st1:City> raises the<br>
"goal" of the OpenMoko project, which is ostensibly "the best<br>
possible mobile phone software stack" that can be installed over a<br>
wide range of phones. But underlying that is the fact that the goal<br>
of FIC, in sponsoring OpenMoko, is to sell more phones and (like any<br>
business) make more profit.<br>
<br>
For any company this sort of information - the anticipated number of<br>
units sold, market breakdown &c - is a trade secret, and I don't see<br>
why OpenMoko should be any different. In many cases this sort of<br>
information may be available to someone with experience in the<br>
industry (or reasonably estimable by them), but it may not be the<br>
sort of information that any company will publish casually.<br>
<br>
Whilst OpenMoko may be interested in public discussion of what we<br>
consumers want (colours, features &c), whilst they may be interested<br>
in open discussion of ideas and whilst they're obviously prepared to<br>
give fuller and more dynamic feedback to us, how much money they're<br>
making on each phone is none of our business. I'm sure that Apple<br>
don't even tell their shareholders how much each iPod costs to build.<br>
<br>
When we buy FIC's OpenMoko products we're buying hardware that is<br>
guaranteed open-source, so that we can fix it ourselves. We're buying<br>
FIC's sponsorship of the programmers contributing to the OpenMoko<br>
codebase and we're buying a promise of warranty & support in the<br>
future (we obviously hope that FIC will continue to sponsor updated<br>
firmware for our phones in the future, and we're pretty confident<br>
they're going to do so longer - and provider better feature updates -<br>
than Sony Ericson). Just as, in polite company, one doesn't ask one's<br>
friends or acquaintances how much they earn, it is likewise none of<br>
our business how much FIC makes out of each phone sake, and it seems<br>
to me that that's pretty much what the "secrecy" whiners on this<br>
thread are asking for (although they may not have actually realised<br>
that),<br>
<br>
Any company will provide "inside information" to the trade press -<br>
perhaps if you're able to demonstrate such informed questions as<br>
<st1:City w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Lowell</st1:place></st1:City> has then
FIC'll invite you, too, to their opening<br>
presentations. You'll maybe have to sign an NDA, but you'll still be<br>
able to make oblique tips to your readers based on your improved<br>
vision of the mobile phone market place. What you have to do first is<br>
demonstrate that you're not a whining fanboi, but that your unique<br>
insight can add value to the discussion of the product.<br>
<br>
I found <st1:City w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Lowell</st1:place></st1:City>'s
remarks interesting because he seems to be looking<br>
at Freerunner's place in the market from the old closed-development<br>
point of view. It seems likely to me that FIC don't need to sell as<br>
many phones as Nokia in order to make a profit, at least not all at<br>
once - the developing state of OpenMoko will ensure a longer<br>
production life-span for the Freerunner than the 6 months or so of<br>
the typical mobile phone in the high street store. As the first<br>
generation of OpenMoko phone, the whole production span of Freerunner<br>
may be a loss-leader to FIC - one might expect the buzz and blogging<br>
generated over the course of two years to increase massively the<br>
demand for OpenMoko's 2010 (say) product.<br>
<br>
Stroller.<br>
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