<html><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><br><div><div>Am 23.05.2010 um 15:12 schrieb Martijn van Dongen:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type="cite">Nikolaus,<br><br>I agree you should first play with something that is available.<br><br>The information I got is from <a href="http://eurocircuit.com">eurocircuit.com</a>, <br>The price is based on 4 layer 150 * 60 mm; just a wild guess of the size and layers based on standard technology, but giving an indication.<br> More about the possibilities can be read in <a href="http://www.eurocircuits.com/images/stories/ec09/ec-services-leaflet-uk-english-4-2010-v2.pdf">http://www.eurocircuits.com/images/stories/ec09/ec-services-leaflet-uk-english-4-2010-v2.pdf</a>. I did not check any guidelines and requirements, so hard to say what suits. If somebody could provide more detailed information or point in a direction, a more serious price could be obtained.<br></blockquote><div><br></div>Ok, I see. They are a pooling supplier like others (pcb-pool, multipcb, etc.), but unfortunately such a project is well outside their offer.</div><div><br></div><div>Just to mention some more or less important differences (I have not looked into all of them):</div><div>* PCB thickness - 1.0 mm (or it will not fit into the Freerunner case)</div><div>* 8 layers needed (or we can't connect all the many pins of the OMAP BGA)</div><div>* stacked/filled Microvias (this is something like a minimum drill of 0.1 mm)</div><div>* 0.1 mm wire width</div><div>* etching and stop mask printing precision good enough for <0.3 mm SMD pads (BGA pitch is 0.4 mm)</div><div><br></div><div>We have done some analyses and none of the online-pcb-shops can provide this. Therefore we asked several manufacturers by e-mail and most declined because they can't handle micro-vias. Some could do it but they said that our requirements drive PCBs cost up to factor 10. I don't know how the OpenPandora solved this (but they have produced 4000 boards so the cost may come down through to large volume). And, I don't know how the BeagleBoard project solved this. But I have read somewhere that they have only 6 layers (not using all features of the OMAP) and 3000 units per batch. Maybe, someone has also sponsored the prototyping phase where you have to produce boards at 500 EUR each. And then you find one misplaced connection or component :(</div><div><br></div><div>For the Openmoko Beagle Hybrid we have just 2 layers (but no OMAP on board). So cost is much lower and comes into the range you have found. But we will add some margin to cover our development and prototyping cost.</div><div><br></div><div>So that is the status as of today. If we can find a design that has big enough demand, we can bring down cost of PCBs to be insignificant (but only if we don't change the PCB design every now and then).</div><div><br></div><div>This finally will lead to the question how many of us want to own such a new OMAP based motherboard for the Freerunner... But I think we are too early to really pose this question since for solid market research, one has to present at least a full concept (complete feature list and target price).</div><div><br></div><div>BR,</div><div>Nikolaus</div><div><br><blockquote type="cite"> <br>Regards,<br>Martijn<br><br><br><br><div class="gmail_quote">2010/5/21 Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:hns@goldelico.com">hns@goldelico.com</a>></span><br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;"> <div style="word-wrap: break-word;">Yes,<div>this all can be considered for a future version.</div><div><br></div><div>What we wanted to start with is something that just works, is easily available, can be used for experimenting and software development and is not too costly. A nice case, a new PCB for the OMAP processor or using the Gumstix makes things much more expensive.</div> <div><br></div><div>@Yocto: what has to be considered is that the Gumstix does not fit into a Freerunner case (it is still too large/thick). </div><div><br></div><div>@ Martijn: the OMAP BGA poses high level requirements for a new PCB. So I would be surprised if one can really get such PCBs for 15 € @ 50 units. But do you have more information? What have been your assumptions about # of layers, min. drill size, min. width etc.?</div> <div><br></div><div><br></div><div>Nikolaus</div><div><br></div><div><br><div><br><div><div>Am 21.05.2010 um 15:48 schrieb Yocto:</div><div><div></div><div class="h5"><br><blockquote type="cite"><span style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: medium; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px;"><div bgcolor="#ffffff"> <div><font face="Arial" size="2">><span> </span><font face="Times New Roman" size="3">I haven't seen a discussion about redesign of the board, the design files (schematics in Orcad) are available, so you can downsize the connectors used and fit it in an existing casing.</font></font></div> <div><font face="Arial" size="2"></font> </div><div><font face="Arial" size="2">Could we, also, consider the option of using a "smaller" board like the Gumstix Overo ?</font></div><div><font face="Arial" size="2"></font> </div> <div><font face="Arial" size="2">OMAP3503 with ARM Cortex-A8 at 600MHz</font></div><div><font face="Arial" size="2">256MB RAM / 256MB Flash</font></div><div><font face="Arial" size="2">[ 17mm x 58mm x 4.2mm ].</font></div> <div><font face="Arial" size="2"><a href="http://www.gumstix.com" target="_blank">http://www.gumstix.com</a></font></div><div><font face="Arial" size="2"></font> </div><div><font face="Arial" size="2">Regards,</font></div> <div><font face="Arial" size="2">// Yocto</font></div><blockquote style="border-left: 2px solid rgb(0, 0, 0); padding-left: 5px; padding-right: 0px; margin-left: 5px; margin-right: 0px;"><div>----- Original Message -----</div> <div style="background-color: rgb(228, 228, 228);"><b>From:</b><span> </span><a title="marvad.one@gmail.com" href="mailto:marvad.one@gmail.com" target="_blank">Martijn van Dongen</a></div><div><b>To:</b><span> </span><a title="community@lists.openmoko.org" href="mailto:community@lists.openmoko.org" target="_blank">List for Openmoko community discussion</a></div> <div><b>Sent:</b><span> </span>Thursday, May 20, 2010 5:00 PM</div><div><b>Subject:</b><span> </span>Re: Openmoko Beagle Hybrid</div><div><br></div>Hi,<br>First of all: nice project, could be a nice follow up for the freerunner.<br> <br>I have been looking at the discussions a little bit. Main discussion is how to make a new casing that fits around the beagle board, how to produce and what it costs.<br>I haven't seen a discussion about redesign of the board, the design files (schematics in Orcad) are available, so you can downsize the connectors used and fit it in an existing casing. I have a price of a PCB (without parts) at low volumes (50 pieces) at less than €15.<br> Assembly of low quantitiy boards will be very expensive (make it double the components price), so a DIY project for assembly of the boards will make the PCB fit for a reasonable price.<br><br>Regards,<br>Martijn<br><br><br> <div class="gmail_quote">2010/5/11 Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller<span> </span><span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:hns@computer.org" target="_blank">hns@computer.org</a>></span><br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;"> There is now a new Wiki page for the project:<br><br> <a href="http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Openmoko_Beagle_Hybrid" target="_blank">http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Openmoko_Beagle_Hybrid</a><br><br>I have received some questions why we did not put all this into a nice<br> design. The main reason is that we can't redesign the Beagleboard (it<br>has fixed dimensions) and we can't afford to build plastic injection<br>moulds (if someone has an idea how to reduce cost this is very<br>welcome). So the easiest solution was to combine what we have: a given<br> Beagleboard and the Freerunner case.<br><br>Other questions were what one could do with this. Here some ideas (not<br>assuming it is complete - you may have more and it is a platform for<br>your creativity):<br><br> • experimenting with touchscreen and new user interfaces on Beagleboard<br> • learn how the OMAP3530 CPU works<br> • make it a truly open mobile application development platform by<br>adding a battery pack and a UMTS usb stick<br> • investigate how an Openmoko with UMTS and OMAP3530 feels (not from<br> haptics but screen operation and UMTS speed)<br> • porting SHR, QtMoko, Android, etc. to ARM-Cortex A8<br><br>And here some feature list:<br><br> • PCB that fits into Freerunner case (top cover and middle part after<br> cutting a hole)<br> • works also without such a case (except speakers and earset)<br> • Toppoly LCM interface (same display as used in the Freerunner -<br>otherwise it would not fit into the case)<br> • TSC2007 touch screen controller<br> • Microphone<br> • Earset and Speaker connector (for those sitting in the Freerunner<br>case)<br> • 2 buttons (AUX and Power)<br> • 2 dual color LEDs (in the AUX and Power buttons)<br> • vibracall driver<br> • headset jack to connect microphone, earset and speaker<br><br>For the software, we have to rearrange the code on our server a little<br>and then it will be made public.<br><br>Finally, here you can do preorders:<br> <br> <a href="http://www.handheld-linux.com/wiki.php?page=Openmoko%20Beagle" target="_blank">http://www.handheld-linux.com/wiki.php?page=Openmoko%20Beagle</a><br><br>Nikolaus<br>_______________________________________________<br> Openmoko community mailing list<br><a href="mailto:community@lists.openmoko.org" target="_blank">community@lists.openmoko.org</a><br><a href="http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community" target="_blank">http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community</a><br> </blockquote></div><br><div><br></div><hr><div><br></div>_______________________________________________<br>Openmoko community mailing list<br><a href="mailto:community@lists.openmoko.org" target="_blank">community@lists.openmoko.org</a><br> <a href="http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community" target="_blank">http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community</a><br></blockquote>_______________________________________________<br>Openmoko community mailing list<br> <a href="mailto:community@lists.openmoko.org" target="_blank">community@lists.openmoko.org</a><br><a href="http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community" target="_blank">http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community</a><br> </div></span></blockquote></div></div></div><br></div></div></div><br>_______________________________________________<br> Openmoko community mailing list<br> <a href="mailto:community@lists.openmoko.org">community@lists.openmoko.org</a><br> <a href="http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community" target="_blank">http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community</a><br> <br></blockquote></div><br> _______________________________________________<br>Openmoko community mailing list<br><a href="mailto:community@lists.openmoko.org">community@lists.openmoko.org</a><br><a href="http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community">http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community</a><br></blockquote></div><br><div> <span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0; "><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; "><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; "><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; text-indent: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; text-transform: none; orphans: 2; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; "><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; text-indent: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; text-transform: none; orphans: 2; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; text-indent: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; text-transform: none; orphans: 2; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; text-indent: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; text-transform: none; orphans: 2; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; text-indent: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; text-transform: none; orphans: 2; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; text-indent: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; text-transform: none; orphans: 2; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; text-indent: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; text-transform: none; orphans: 2; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; text-indent: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; text-transform: none; orphans: 2; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; text-indent: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; text-transform: none; orphans: 2; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; "><p style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">---------------<font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; ">-----------------------------------------------------</font></p><p style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Mobile Office Solutions</p><p style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">by Golden Delicious Computers GmbH&Co. KG</p><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Buchenstr. 3</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">D-82041 Oberhaching</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">+49-89-54290367</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><a href="http://www.handheld-linux.com">http://www.handheld-linux.com</a></div><div><br></div></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">AG München, HRA 89571</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">VAT DE253626266</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Komplementär:</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Golden Delicious Computers Verwaltungs GmbH</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oberhaching, AG München, HRB 16602</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Geschäftsführer: Dr. Nikolaus Schaller</div><p style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><br class="khtml-block-placeholder"></p><p style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Digital Tools for Independent People</p><p style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; ">--------------------------------------------------------------------</font></p><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></div></span></div></span><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"></div></span><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"></div></span><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"> </div><br></body></html>