Ain't it funny..
Steve Mosher
steve at openmoko.com
Sat May 9 06:11:54 CEST 2009
Dale Maggee wrote:
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> Hi Steve,
>
> I appreciate your replying to this thread.
>
> I would however point out that I believe that you should have already
> been aware of this issue before I raised it in this public mailing list:
> I sent three emails to Openmoko asking about getting a refund, and
> received no reply to any of them. I've pasted these emails below, after
> the "---BEGIN EMAIL THREAD---" Line. You were cc'd in two of these
> emails (the ones saying "I've had no reply"). I eventually got a
> response from Tony Tu on the trac ticket, at which point I stopped
> sending emails to you.
>
Dale, as you can well imagine since I receive mail every single time
a FR is ordered,
since I receive mail every time we get a request for a return, since
I receive mail from
the community list and the developer list and since I received mail
from contact at openmoko
university at openmoko.. oh heck every public mail we have plus I have
my email on every
press release, you can well imagine that I might have forgotten your
name. But I didn't.
Two people handled the RMAs on product purchased from OM store. And
with Tony on the
job I just assumed it would handled. I've been informed that we dont
have a record a record
of you purchasing the phone from us. That probably explains why Tony
could not process
the return.
> As I've indicated, I've already gone through the process of requesting a
> refund for the device, and this was declined. I think you should be able
> to find all the info you need at https://support.openmoko.com/trac/ticket/36
>
Yes. As I stated above we have no record of you purchaing the phone at
our store: openmoko.com
If you purchased it elsewhere please let me know. All of the guys here
who have dealt with me will
tell you that I'm a fair and reasonable person.
> I think that if you want to discuss the refund issue with me, it may be
> more appropriate to do so off-list, but I realise that I may have
> created a public image issue for you here (given my usage of the words
> "thieves" and "defrauded"), and that you may therefore want to keep this
> public. If you're willing to work with me to resolve my grievances and
> prove my assertions incorrect, then I'd be more than happy to come back
> here and retract my previous statements once it's resolved :). That
> might be more appropriate, rather than flooding the mailing list with
> what will effectively be back-and-forth personal conversations between
> you and me. but if you want to discuss it in this public place I have no
> problem with that either - up to you.
>
Makes no difference to me. If I handled this privately I'm sure some
lunatic down the road
who slam me for taking it private and launch into yact, yet another
conspiracy theory.
You put your return request into the RMA process for the Openmoko
store. For
that process to work we have to be able to find you in the database.
So, if you could
verify that you did in fact purchase the phone from that store ( the sn
and imei would
help) Then I can do two things:
1. Figure out how the heck the system didnt capture your information
2. Process your return.
WRT your language. If I took offense, then I'd be a thief. ( that's a
joke.. took a fence)
Seriously, I'm no person to lecture people about having a colorful way
of expressing
anger. I'll just say that some weapons have more collateral damage then
others. And
sometimes you can frag yourself, intentionally or otherwise, if you
don't get clear of the blast zone.
> Since having my application for a refund declined, I had come to kind of
> accept that I had "been screwed", and I have since bought another phone.
> Since I did that, I've (in my less angry moments) come to see the FR as
> a kind-of-cool little open-source device, as long as you don't want to
> use it as a phone. I haven't really done anything much with it, because
> so far I've been too angry to really even look at it, but I will admit
> that it does have potential for something, even if it's not as a
> reliable phone.
>
I'll check from my side but did they give you a reason for being
declined.
> (That's my whole point, by the way: That it's not a usable phone, even
> after a year of waiting, and I bought it because I wanted a working open
> source phone, and I was told that the FR would meet that requirement).
>
> I would therefore perhaps be open to accepting a partial refund and
> keeping the device as a PDA-sized linux device (The AU Laws allow for
> that), even if I never use it. But I think that if this were to happen I
> would maybe not feel cheated anymore and could possibly once again
> enjoy participating constructively in the community.
>
Let's see what turns up when I get the ID numbers I requested. If you
bought it from somebody
else, then there might be a variety of remedies. But here in the states
to process a return
proof of purchase is required. Again, I'm not insinuating that you didnt
buy the phone. I'm
just trying to nail down the details required to solve the situation for
you. And I do appreciate your patience
and your willingness to see some good in the device
> I Look forward to hearing from you.
>
> Regards,
> - -Dale
>
> - ---BEGIN EMAIL THREAD---
>
> Subject: [Fwd: [Fwd: FreeRunner]]
> Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2009 20:19:34 +1100
> From: Dale Maggee <antisol at internode.on.net>
> To: contact at openmoko.com, sean at openmoko.com, steve at openmoko.com
>
> Having received absolutely no response whatsoever after more than a
> week, even after opening a refund ticker in trac (#36), I resend my
> email once again...
>
> - -------- Original Message --------
> Subject: [Fwd: FreeRunner]
> Date: Fri, 13 Mar 2009 10:25:12 +1100
> From: Dale Maggee <antisol at internode.on.net>
> To: contact at openmoko.com
> CC: sean at openmoko.com, mickey at openmoko.org, steve at openmoko.com
>
> Having received no response whatsoever to my previous email, I'll send
> it again, and add a few more addresses. Hopefully I'll get a reply this
> time. Please see below.
>
> Regards,
> - -Dale
>
> - -------- Original Message --------
> Subject: FreeRunner
> Date: Mon, 09 Mar 2009 16:35:41 +1100
> From: Dale Maggee <antisol at internode.on.net>
> To: contact at openmoko.com
>
> Hi,
>
> Please advise what is the process for getting my money back for my Neo
> Freerunner.
>
> Before I purchased this device almost a year ago, I was told that it
> could reliably make and recieve phone calls, as per Steve's email below.
> This is not, nor has it ever been the case - The device has *never*
> reliably made or recieved phone calls, it's overall stability is
> completely sub-par, and the ASU software stack mentioned turned out to
> be even less reliable and also slower than the original 2007.2 software
> stack.
>
> I have listened to Openmoko's promises regarding solving the issues, and
> these promises have not been met, repeatedly. In addition to this, as
> far as I can see, Openmoko's emphasis does not appear to be on stability
> or being able to use the device reliably as a phone, you seem to be more
> interested in building new frameworks from the ground up than actually
> making the device do what I bought it to do. While I'll agree that FSO
> may *one day* provide a usefull framework, it is presently far away from
> this goal (*still* no PIM!).
>
> In addition, "a working phone that could be used as an everyday phone"
> has a suspend mode, will happily go for more than 4-6 hours without
> being attached to a battery charger, and will actually wake up from
> suspend mode when appropriate (i.e if somebody calls). Thus this device
> does not do what you have told me it would do, even nine months on.
> Don't bother trying to tell me that "the suspend problems are fixed in
> the .28 kernel", because months after hearing these claims there are
> *still* no distros available which use this kernel, making this point moot.
>
> I apologise for the curt tone of this email, but I have become
> increasingly frustrated and disconcerted with this device as time has
> gone on, I've repeatedly resisted the urge to post much more
> harshly-worded emails on the mailing lists, and I have now come to the
> conclusion that I have no option other than to purchase a new phone
> which will actually do what it's supposed to do. As such, I will have no
> use for the Freerunner, and according to the Australian Fair Trading
> laws, I am entitled to a refund under the Fair Trading Act 1999 if the
> goods I bought have a fault I could not have known about when I bought
> them, or do not do the job I was led to believe they would. The
> Freerunner clearly and demonstrably fits both of these criteria.
>
> As such, please advise how I should go about obtaining my refund.
>
> Regards,
> - -Dale Maggee
>
>
> On 29-Jun-2008, steve <steve at openmoko.com> wrote:
>
>> The base software provided with the phone at launch will support
>> everyday use.
>>
>> 1. dialer.
>> 2. SMS.
>> 3. Contacts.
>>
>> That was the fundamental goal. Provde a working phone that could be
>> used as an everyday phone.
>>
>> In the background a whole new software suite is being created. ASU.
>>
>> So between launch ( right now) and sometime in August/september,
>>
> developers
>
>> will have a
>> Phone that actually works like a phone. It's functionality will be basic.
>> Come this fall
>> The whole look and Feel will change.
>>
>> Steve
>>
>>
>
>
> - ---END EMAIL THREAD---
>
>
> Steve Mosher wrote:
>
>> Hi Dale.
>>
>> I got a note from the people who handle these issues. In looking
>> through our store records
>> we were unable to find any order from you at openmoko.com. That
>> doesn't mean
>> you haven't purchased a phone. If you could, provide me with the
>> details of your
>> purchase. Who you bought it from and when. Also, if you take the
>> battery out
>> you'll see a IMEI number and a serial number. That will help with
>> tracking as
>> well. So send those along as well.
>>
>> Best Regards
>>
>> Steve
>>
>> steve at openmoko.com
>>
>> Dale Maggee wrote:
>> Guten Tag, Sieg Heil.
>>
>> Seriously... You may not have heard of it, but There's a concept that's
>> been around for a while called "Free speech"... you know, as opposed to
>> "free beer".
>>
>> "Goebbels was in favour of free speech for views he liked. So was
>> Stalin. If you're really in favour of free speech, then you're in favour
>> of freedom of speech for precisely for views you despise. Otherwise,
>> you're not in favour of free speech." - Noam Chomsky
>>
>> I am contributing - contributing to Free Speech, and I'm doing my part
>> to warn prospective customers against giving their money to thieves.
>>
>> If you're not in favour of free speech then I have two words for you:
>> "Email filter". But I'm not going anywhere.
>>
>>
>> (Note: I know there are quite a few deutschlanders on this list, and my
>> use of your language is not intended in any way as a slight against your
>> people or country. On the contrary, I think that you're among the most
>> beautiful and intelligent people in the world, and your country reflects
>> that... :) )
>>
>>
>> jeremy jozwik wrote:
>>
>>
>>>>> seriously... go write the prime minister or something. if your not
>>>>> going to contribute your just wasting everyone else's time
>>>>>
>>>>> On Thu, May 7, 2009 at 5:04 PM, Dale Maggee <antisol at internode.on.net> wrote:
>>>>> arne anka wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Bitter much? : )
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> nope. he's just a troll.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>> Before I bought My Neo, I was told by OM that it would work as a phone.
>>>>>
>>>>> Once I got it and said "WTF This doesn't work as a phone!" I was told by
>>>>> OM that 2008.8 would. So I waited.
>>>>>
>>>>> It was worse than 2007.2. I was told that 2008.12 would be much better.
>>>>> So I waited.
>>>>>
>>>>> Was there even any difference? Sure, the animations might have been a
>>>>> bit smoother, or something, but it still didn't work as a phone.
>>>>>
>>>>> When I asked for my money back I was told that it had been too long
>>>>> since I placed my order... despite the fact that the only reason I
>>>>> waited so long was that I trusted OM when they said that I would
>>>>> eventually get a working phone.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I contacted Consumer Affairs here in AU. They told me that OM were
>>>>> legally bound by our laws (which include a clause giving me the right to
>>>>> demand a refund if the item doesn't do what I was led to believe it
>>>>> would do). They told me that according to the letter of the law, OM were
>>>>> required to give me a refund. They also told me that since they're based
>>>>> overseas, there's basically no way to enforce it.
>>>>>
>>>>> In short: OM Have Lied to me, then violated the consumer protection laws
>>>>> they're bound to by selling a Neo to an Australian Citizen by refusing
>>>>> to refund my money. That means that *OpenMoko Are THIEVES*.
>>>>>
>>>>> Anything I say about them is justified. IMO you can't be a troll if
>>>>> you're in the right. And I am. I have been defrauded of $400. And so
>>>>> have you. The only difference is that I'm not willing to sit around
>>>>> pretending that being raped is all fun and games.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Openmoko community mailing list
>> community at lists.openmoko.org
>> http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Openmoko community mailing list
>>>>> community at lists.openmoko.org
>>>>> http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
>>>>>
>>>>>
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